Topic: Building a New Contessa

Now I realize that there are lots and lots of used sailbooats out there for sale in the 22-30 foot range.  But it strikes me that there are hardly any manufacturers that are building in that range - what I mean is Hunter and others build what essentially (in my opnion) looks like a day sailer.  There doesn't seem to be any boats being built today that are the same caliber of the Contessa, Alberg, Mirage, Tanzer, Shark in that length range.  I am just musing as to why that is - is it because the market is so gluted with used sailboats or is it because I haven't been to a decent boat show lately (though a purely unscientific search on the internet did not yield much information as to new 22 to 30 footers being built)?  I do realize that the market did collapse in the late 80's but I wonder if there is a market today for such boats?  There seems to be a very robust market for new boats in Europe and North America over 32 feet.  Just some thoughts.

This of course doe not mean I want to trade in Morava ;-)

Ivan Ross

Morava #266

Ivan Ross "Morava" #266

Re: Building a New Contessa

As we all know, our Contessa are cozy with its small cabin space.  For two people to pass each other in the cabin is challenge.  Today people want the head and feet room with a lounge full of luxery that includes a table (though for this 5'3" kid it is just right for me).  Thus the smallest boat I have seen at a show is the Hunter 30' and it was just a day sailing type of boat to me.  I did not go below to truly look at it.  Also, a Contessa 26 is built with 45% of its weight below water line, which gives it its stability.  One can not do this with today's new boats.  This is one of the main reasons I choose this boat and besides, the Contessa 26 is for sailing in all weather conditions and across the 7-seas to new lands that need exploring, not for hopping around a few islands with a fancy hotel loungy below.  Just a few of my thoughts on the issue.  Cheers, jklee

3 (edited by stefan_d 2006-11-09 19:44:43)

Re: Building a New Contessa

This the reason that JJT stopped production of the 26 - simply wasn't a market for it anymore.  To produce a Taylor 26 in the late 80's early 90's would probably be on par with the cost of producing a Catalina or Hunter in the 34 foot range at one of their mega factories.  Now we're a loyal lot, but there's not many people out there who would (could?) spend 50K+ for a 26 foot boat.    In 1990, a  Mirage 29, C&C 27/29, etc were "normal" sized boats.  A CS 36 or a 35 foot Beneteau or Hunter was HUGE.  Look around today - at the marina and the boat show.  The smallest thing anyone shows up with is 32-34 feet but 14 feet wide and displaces 15 000 pounds...  fat ass boats...)  Who cares about the sailing if you're comfortable below. I think that you could fit a whole Contessa 26 into the cabin of one of those behemoth Catalina's or Beneteau 50 footers.......

Re: Building a New Contessa

There are still LOADS of small boats being built. No, they don't look like Contessas, and I understand the traditionalist appeal, but lets recall she was designed in the 60s, based on an even older design. Stroll through the list of pocketcruisers, there may be more now than ever. Companies like Beneteau aren't comparable with JJ Talyor as JJT made maybe 800 boats in it's entire history while Beneteau makes 5000 a year - they are clearly focused at different markets and always have been.  J boats makes several sub 32s, the J80, I believe you can still get a J22 or J24 built. The Colgate 26 is a great boat. Com-pac makes no less than 6 sub-30foot cruising boats. West wight potter has a 17 and a 19. Pacific Seacraft still makes the Dana 24, and I believe the Flicka 20, both solid cruisers. Eastsail Yachts makes several pocket cruisers. Hunter, (can't believe I'm plugging them!), makes a 25 and a 27. Ok, I'll have to mention the MacGregor 26 even if I struggle to categorize it as a sailboat. You can still get a new Nor'Sea 27. Precision is a builder who makes some great performing small boats - 7 models, 15 - 28 feet. Seaward makes a neat little 26. If you wanted a new Contessa 26 built today, even assuming the molds still existed, I think you should plan to double that $50K number. Yep, the big boats get more press, are more visible at boat shows, and have bigger marketing budgets, but rest assured, there are still many, many pocket cruiser options out there.

Re: Building a New Contessa

The differences between the Contessa's traditional "designed for sea shape" and a modern "designed for the marina" hull shape  are winning the sales battle. A friend has an Aloha 27. It is only one foot longer, but the differences are night and day. Full head room. The galley is across the beam. The cabin berths are like a large boat with a bench on one side and a C shaped settee and table on the other. The cockpit lockers are so large that two adults can climb into one side locker to work on the side of the engine. I had to squeeze my sister's 5 year old into my aft locker with a wrench in order to tighten the aft chain plate bolts. Those features will always win with people who never plan on being out of sight of the marina entrance.

6 (edited by Virago Deb 2006-11-10 19:56:06)

Re: Building a New Contessa

Interesting conversation...I'm going to float the idea that technology has something to do with it.  With roller furling, power winches and windlasses etc, people can manage much bigger boats and the associated gear than they could several decades ago when everything was done with "arm-strong" technology.  Also, autohelm will steer a boat that is not a natural course keeper; The sailor does not have to rely on lateral plane and good hull and sail balance anymore to keep a straight(ish) line.  Thus fin keels, post mounted spade rudders with no skegs etc. can be designed into a boat for speed with little consideration for her directional stability.  We've also become creatures of comfort  - we want hot and cold running water, showers, a gas range and a microwave oven, lot of clothes and toys, stereos, televisions, and lots of electronics to do our piloting and navigation for us, and all that takes space - not just for the objects themselves, but for the systems that support them such as batteries and generators, and lots of tank capacity.  I've just finished living three years with no indoor plumbing or electricity, and there are many who would not come to visit me for a week-end for lack of facilities let alone jump into a small boat and add cramped and wet to the list of hardships.  As a local commercial fisherman put it, "...it used to be that the boats were wood and the men were steel...".

On the other hand, SteveM's inventory of current pocket cruisers is encouraging.

Re: Building a New Contessa

Quite right, technology has transformed sailing. But it's not just technology in equipment, it's technology in materials and especially design. Does anyone think evolution stops where they are now? In the 60s, did anyone think monohull sloops would be capable of 20+ knots and still be seaworthy enough to cross oceans? No, but technological advancements in design and build has made this a reality. Check out the minitransat. 24 foot monohulls that cross oceans and hit double-digit speeds doing it. I'm a sucker for a nice sheer line, a pretty bow, and a solid feel underfoot too; but, the sport of sailing needs the folks who live on the cutting edge too, we'll all ultimately benefit from what they learn and develop.

8 (edited by Virago Deb 2006-11-12 12:42:48)

Re: Building a New Contessa

Evolution does go on, but why do we Contessa/Alberg/Folkboat fans hunt for our boats so keenly?  Because they're great boats for the way we like to sail and you can't get anything like 'em anymore.  I haven't looked at the new boat market much these days, but I see what's in the various marinas where I work and play.  Maybe there are good small boats being built, but I don't see them on the water (except the ubiquitous cheap MacGregors).  Good used small cruisers sell, but I don't see new ones.  Pretty well all the new boats I see are big, light displacement "fat ass boats" as they seem to be called.  Even the small day sailer/weekender boats are left-overs from the early 80's.  Is that a function of supply or demand, I wonder?

Maybe it is largely a function of economics - who's got the money and what they want in a boat, and as Stefan suggested, what their money will get them.  The used market is always there for those of us with "old fashion" tastes and/or small wallets.  Maybe the new boat market reflects the shrinking disposable income in the middle classes and the strong economics for the moneyed.  It is said that money talks, and maybe money says "big fat assed boat, please".

P.S., Where, generally speaking do you live, SteveM?  Perhaps there is a different sailing environment and boat market where you are compared to here on the Great Lakes.

Re: Building a New Contessa

I live in Maryland now, but spent most of my years thus far in Maine. I think the answer is what people who would buy a Contessa 26 are partial to, as well as a function of economics. It strikes me that the Great Lakes market is actually more of a racer/cruiser market, if one takes a stroll through Sailing's classifieds.

The 26 is a traditional boat. My real point is to avoid that sense of sailors looking down their nose at another boat type and thinking "less" of it because it does not meet their aesthetic requirements. "Fat Ass" is actually an evolution in design that has yielded not only more room, but better off the wind sailing characteristics. Let's bear in mind that the C26 is a canoe, even by traditional standards. There are many wide and heavy traditional boats. Ever seen a coastal shipping schooner, (coaster), from the 19th century? Crocker designed cutters?

Boats are all compromises of one thing or another. Sailing is sailing, I applaud anyone out there doing, regardless of whether or not I would choose their boat as my own.

One of the reasons costs have gone up is because less people sail now than 10 years ago, so welcome the brethren, rather than judge them. (speaking generally here, not specifically to anyone.)

Stefan is partially right though. The cost to build a 27 foot boat commercially isn't that far from the cost to build a 31, so why build the 27? This has generally led to a gap between the sub-28 sport sailer and the 30+ cruiser.

The Dana 24 from Pacific Seacraft is still in production and probably meets the traditionalist appeal as closely as possible. I would also put the quality of construction miles above the JJT 26s.

Re: Building a New Contessa

The quality better be there and then some with a bare bones price tag of US$ 118,000.00 for a brand new Dana 24.

Re: Building a New Contessa

Well, very very interesting discussion.  I think a lot of good points were made regarding technology and how the design and comfort of the sail boat has evolved - and I don't want to judge people who choose a sailboat for comfort (or any other reason) because I sure know I would appreciate that.  I realize that there are also a lot of problems with the Contessa from a design perspective,  but it does make me a bit nostalgic for when they were producing these boats - I was 10 when my dad bought Morava brand new in 1980 and I still remember how she gleamed and looked when she was launched- I guess I am corrupted because I don't see anything like that on the market today in that length range built to that standard.  I guess I was dreaming when I broached the topic - I thought I could have a second career building new Contessa's ;-)  and I am sure  Jermey Rogers has looked at the economics of building new 26 footers and decided to stay with the 32.  In the end, I guess most of us are willing to put up with the cramped quarters etc... because of the way these boats sail.  Having been fortunate enough to sail on many different types of boats, there are very few that come close - then again I am most likely biased.

Cheers.

Ivan Ross "Morava".

Ivan Ross "Morava" #266

12 (edited by Virago Deb 2006-11-15 02:58:50)

Re: Building a New Contessa

Last remark from me before going home again for a while.  I never meant to sound distainful of other boats, or their sailors, though I likely did.   My opinions express wistful sadness for what is lost, not distain for what is - elegant simplicity is out of fashion in pretty well every facet of modern western life.  As for the term "fat ass boat", it seems to have become something of a general term in this forum for the big, baloon-like, modern boats - we could come up with a different term.  If I am going to mangle my intentions with words, I'll end with the classic "I've got friends who sail fat ass boats" and leave you all reeling with political incorrectness.

Perhaps I should have taken the name Curmudgeon Deb.

Re: Building a New Contessa

Methinks my point still slightly misunderstood. Not taking a shot at anyone, at least no more than I was myself - meaning my admonition was meant for myself as much as anyone else. The caution I meant to make was that we all love our boats for OUR reasons, and this, in my observation, often leads one to look down our noses at "other" boats. While I generally try to keep my mouth shut, I am JUST as guilty of this as anyone. e.g. - I have been quoted as saying Hunters are crap. And I think they are, for the use that I use a boat. However, if one wants to spend most of their time in calm waters and with short hops from marina to marina, they are in fact the perfect boat providing much space in a relatively inexpensive platform that sails quite well in certain conditions. Would I sail one offshore? No, I'd rather eat my own head. I saw a Hunter that was delivered from A to B some 850 miles offshore in the Atlantic, a 45-ish if memory serves, and at the end of that delivery, one could wiggle the main bulkhead with their hand. Yikes! But that person was using a boat for a purpose that the boat was not intended from a build and design perspective, (let's leave the marketers out of this for the sake of the point for a moment, that's a different story altogether!). Just trying to point out that everything moves on. Don't forget in the 1970s, even our beloved Contessa 26s were not infrequently referred to as "tupperware" by just as discerning folk as we are. Were they right to look down their nose then at our lovely mini-yachts? No more than we are now to turn up our nose at any boat of "our time", but at that time, many boat aficionados were that much closer to wood. And were $$$$, time, and maintenance no object, I would wholeheartedly agree with them and would be unquestionably sailing a wood boat - pragmatics aside, to me, there is nothing so warm, beautiful and beckoning as a planked wooden hull. However, pragmatics are a reality, so I've compromised with a plastic boat - albeit one with traditional lines. $118K for a new Dana 24? Not so bad really, considering the last of the "new" JJT 26s rolled off the line at about $50K, which is in fact $80K in today's dollars, then $118K isn't so far above.  And certainly the Dana 24 is built to a notably higher standard than the JJT 26, not to mention as this discussion underscores, there isn't as much competition for a offshore worthy built pocketcruiser now - so that price is actually in line.

Re: Building a New Contessa

Hi Steve M:

I actually looked at the Dream Cathcher Yacths web site, and they seem very impressive.  I am amazed as to what they are able to do with the Dana 24 and and still maintain some classic lines.  Also it was interesting to note that while the 24 might seem expensive, the other prices  for their bigger size boats seem fairly good when compared to a new Hunter etc...  The Dana 24  does look impressive for its size.  They remind me of the Westsail.

Cheers.

IR  "Morava" #266

Ivan Ross "Morava" #266

Re: Building a New Contessa

As a bonafide wood snob and wood boat owner I can tell you that even wood snobs like the contessa,and have even been heard to admit it.They even (perhaps reluctantly)wave.Bilge

16 (edited by MCo26 2006-12-06 12:31:15)

Re: Building a New Contessa

AMN,

Could you provide us a web link to see your sailboat. i try the web adress under your name but i don't understand your language.

Thank's

Marc

Contessa 26 #158
Sun Wave
Montreal QC