Topic: Weather Helm?

I'm considering a Contessa 26 as a replacement for my wooden boat.  I was expecting a C26 to sail like a Folkboat, but I was reading another strand that worried me a bit.  It is a point of pride among some Folkboat sailors that they never reef.  The fellow I bought mine from said that they simply dump the wind off the top of the sail at greater angles of heel.  In reading the other strand, I found a breif discussion of a C26 heeling to where water was pouring over the cockpit coaming.  There was also a mention of weather helm.  I know weather helm is a matter of physics and can't be avoided completely.  Is weather helm a problem with these boats?

Re: Weather Helm?

Never  experienced weatherhelm like me old boat even in a F6; yes it will heel until you get the gunnel in the water but that's when it's most fun :-)

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If the memories are better than the dreams then it's all over.....
[url=http://www.contessa26moonshine.me.uk]www.contessa26moonshine.me.uk[/url]

Re: Weather Helm?

The rig is so different on this boat,I don't think you can compare them.I believe the Canadian boats have taller rig,but either has a large foretriangle.The big genny moves the center of effort aft,so if you say had a strapped down,baggy main in a good breeze then you would get a strong helm.I flatten the main early on and ease it out until it is just starting to backwind.This keeps the helm light.This boat romps in a breeze and some sea,and is also surprisingly fast in light wind.A very sweet boat to sail.

Re: Weather Helm?

The Contessa doesn't have a problem with weather helm, UNLESS you're trying to pinch, or the rig isn't tuned properly. If the rig is tuned and sails trimmed properly, falling off a few degrees from maximum sheeting you can just about let go of the tiller.

Not reefing is not wise - (it can be fun of course!), but it not only overstresses the rig, but it is also a much slower way to sail than reefing. If your combing is consistently in the drink, you'll go much faster by tucking in a reef.

Re: Weather Helm?

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I reef whenever my toe rail hits the water.  Sometimes sooner if I desire less excitement.  You're right - no need to stress the boat and crew unnecessarily.  Up to a point, however, sailing a keelboat on her ear can be faster as a result of effectively lengthening the waterline.  For some reason, that the old timers were unable to divine, putting the toe rail under always seemed to slow 'em down.  They experimented with rounded, smooth toe rails and other nifty designs, but could not overcome the problem.  Also, as you heel over you show less sail area to the wind.

Re: Weather Helm?

The other thing about the folkboat and not reefing is that it has a much bigger main sail and a bendy rig that allows you to flatten the prime mover (main)so that it heels the boat much less.The prime mover on the contessa is the headsail.which has fewer trimming and shaping options to help spill heavy wind.Given the same rig the folkboat and contessa would likely behave much alike.Also the nordic folkboat does not have a chute so they want max sail area for the off the wind legs of the raceMy observation with the contessa is that you loose about .6 to.8 of a knot if you are over sheeted or rail in the water,plus you can get a little more helm than you would like.

Re: Weather Helm?

Thankyou for a remarkably reasoned reply.  I'm embarrassed to admit that, while I've looked at a number of photos of both, I wasn't clear on the relative sizes of the sails.  You're absolutely right though, on my FB the forestay hit the deck a couple of feet short of the stem.  Which says a lot about the size of the headsail on a 25' boat.
Jeff

Re: Weather Helm?

I had a 19' wooden boat with a 7'5'' beam and bought a Contessa 26 with the same beam. My woody was mast-forward mainsail oriented. The Contessa with mast further aft needs her jib.
First thing I did was add a roller furler for the jib (120% genoa seems to be plenty). Jiffy reefing has the main sail size under control.
Men love to heel and almost put the mast tip in the water. Women find heeling to be alarming and control over sail size is the only way to get the boat back on her feet enough to get them to come back aboard again.
I found, when racing, that in a hard beat into 13 knots of wind or more a Contessa under full sail lays over so far that water pours over the cockpit coaming into the cockpit. That's when she puts on a burst of speed, skidding along on her side and out-pointing just about everybody that beats most non-racing boats under 40 feet. We won that race but my wife's bunk got wet and she took her gear off the boat never to return.

The cutworms are in the hollyhocks, again!

10 (edited by KodiakGirl 2007-07-31 01:04:48)

Re: Weather Helm?

Re: Weather Helm?

You go KodiakGirl!  Mr. Tooter should consider who his fellow sailors are...not all women are living, breathing (screaming?) levo-gages!

12 (edited by KodiakGirl 2007-04-02 22:12:05)

Re: Weather Helm?

Hello Virago Deb,
Thanks for your reply! - I am not sure what a levo-gage is but it probably isn't into big waves! smile I wonder if the "roaring 40's" were named after the men instead of the winds? ..... Sorry, couldn't help being sexist here- you know most sailors WERE men in the old days- and the best pirates were women! My sister gave me a tank top with the caption: "Women Who Behave Rarely Make History" -So are we misbehavin for wantin to go sailin? wink

Re: Weather Helm?

Nice humour.. LOL
jose

14 (edited by Virago Deb 2007-04-04 14:53:53)

Re: Weather Helm?

I want one of those shirts!!!!  Sailing it is - lets go!

This is a divergence from the original topic if there ever was one but what the heck...

In all seriousness, I am often puzzled by the real and percieved differences between males and females, especially when it comes to physical risk taking.  In my professional life and my play time I do things that are largely mens' occupations, but there are also a few women.  We constantly swim against a current that does not encourage women, but we do the activities because we love them and a side effect of that is that it shows that we can; That there's no reason for us not to.  On the other hand, it's easy to lark over timid women, but we don't often point and laugh at timid men (no kick in the shins for Tubatooter there, just a general observation of different social norms).  It's a large and complicated topic but I'm not sure why - where do these perceptions, expectations and occasional truths come from?  It's a question that has challenged me my entire life (so far).

Re: Weather Helm?

I don't think that's an accurate assessment or statement in any way, shape, or form. Consider for a moment the term "wimp", generally associated with the male gender - is it not? If you think not, then consider the term "gaybashing" - is that generally associated more closely with the male gender or the female? The statistics provide a clear, sad and stark answer:

"In the United States, the FBI reported that 15.6% of hate crimes reported to police in 2004 were based on perceived sexual orientation. 61% of these attacks were against gay men, 14% against lesbians, 2% against heterosexuals and 1% against bisexuals, while attacks against GLB people at large made up 20%."

Certainly I'm an advocate of the wrongly disenfranchised and will leap to their moral, financial, or physical assistance whenever the call comes, (like now), but equally so will also point out when the disenfranchised are falsely claiming the status. By the way, what's that got to do with sailing anyway? Which, after all, is the wonderful thread that all posters here should recognize as the tie that binds us all in equality. This is sailing, everyone's welcome and everyone belongs, none more or less than the other - that's the beauty of life under sail.

Re: Weather Helm?

No claim to disenfranchisement made - it's more that I am baffled as to why humans need to categorize the people around them and then set behavioral expectations for those groups, including those in their own community.  What does this have to do with sailing?  This series of exchanges demonstrates that there are still gross generalizations made, people who will loudly proclaim their own agendas, those who are uncomfortable with disturbances to the peace, and those who are just trying to get on with a life as they choose to live it - even among sailors.

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Is it human nature or is it societal, this us-against-them mentality?

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I just went thru this diversity train the other day on the problem with color jelly beans.  What we learned is that everyone has the strenghts and weakness but with us, we just have the fun of sailing in a boat we all enjoy talking about and love to show off our pictures of her.  This is the reason I enjoy this forum as we all have something to give to each other as we try and answer the many request for info to your problems in upgrading our boat, at least I have put in my share of request;-)  Just remember, our Contessa's does not care who its navigator or passengers are, as she is the captain who wants to keep on sailing into the rising or setting sun.  Cheers! ~jklee

19 (edited by Virago Deb 2007-04-07 04:28:25)

Re: Weather Helm?

That's the biggest question of them all, Adrian, though it's not an us-against-them issue, at least not for me, and I don't think I've said anything accusatory or in the vein of man-bashing.  There are differences between men and women, that's a given, but lets allow that there are differences within those groups too.  I came back here and edited out a large entry about this topic, but I decided that it is not, as someone pointed out earlier, suitable for this forum.

20 (edited by John Lee 2007-04-11 15:19:26)

Re: Weather Helm?

Okay, not to belittle the point, but here is a little history; the fastest sailor around the world to date is Ellen MacArthur 2006, who also came in second in the 2001 Vendee Globe, won 2002 Route de Rhum and at age 19 solo around British Isles. Catherine Chabaud became the 1st woman to races in Vendee Globe in 1996 only 6 races after Robin Knox-Johnston did it in 1969.  Chojnowska-Liskiewicz was 1st woman to sail around the world sole 1976-8, though at the same time a grandmother, Ann Gash, did the same in a Folkboat from Australia 1975-77.  Ann Davison was first to solo Atlantic 1952-3.  Naomi James was 1st woman to circumnavigate world via Cape Horn in 272 days with only 2 stops (she had never spent more then a night on the water before this!) in 1977-78. Emma Richards was youngest solo sailor in 2003 Around Alone race and recieved from Queen the MBE metal for it along with Ellen MacArthur for her sailing following year (I believe).  Alice Otsuji Hager, 63, in 1984 solo - non-stop in International Folkboat from SF, Calif to Kagoshima in southern Japan in 78 days.  Florence Arthaud in 1990 won the Route du Rhum after being in this race every year since it started.  Kay Cottee was 1st solo around the world in 1988 in 189 days, beating Knox-Johnston time. in 1994-95, Lisa Clayton became the 1st British woman to solo - non-stop around the world in 285 day despite capsizing 7 times! Samatha Brewster 1996  in 67 foot steel cutter sailed  "the hard way" (west - east) 1970 around world in 247 beating Chay Blyth's 1970-71 record (sailed in original around world race) time by 45 days.  In 2006, Dolores Clover (mother of youngest kid to solo Atlantic in 2004) on Belmore, Contessa 32 also solo the Atlantic Ocean.  Then there is our famous Tania Aebi on the famous Varuna in 1985-87.  This is only a few of many women who have sailed the  7-seas and it shows that no one owns the sea no matter which side of the "x-y" gene side your on, unless you have big corporation backing you;-)  Still, even they have failed to survive the sea and for all of us that is the name of the game and telling your stories about it.  ~jklee

Re: Weather Helm?

Hello:

I have quite a lot of weather helm in quite light winds (~12 kts).  I seem to the first boat reefing!  The furler is attached to the stemhead casting a couple of inches aft of the orginal position (there is a crack in the most forward hole).   I am wondering how much of a difference moving the furler forward would make (i.e, by fixing/replacing the casting).  I've raked the mast and flattened main, etc. with some success.

Re: Weather Helm?

Did not mean to enrage any feminists. There is a book entitled " A Gentleman Never Sails to Weather" . I prefer to get out there and see which way seas and wind are directed before deciding on my destination.
Jiffy reefing on my mainsail has a hook on the forward boom to catch one of three cringles sewn into the forward (luff) of the mainsail. Lowering the main until one of the cringles can engage the hook on the luff and attaching an outhaul line at the rear of the main (leach) and pulling the back of the sail out and down only takes a minute if there are two working each end of the main. We just luff up, ease the main halyard low enough to catch the cringle on the hook and tighten the new outhaul and retighten the main halyard in a "jiffy".
Roller furling on the jib gives me the control over sail size I must have on a tippy boat.

The cutworms are in the hollyhocks, again!

Re: Weather Helm?

I see several people mentioning roller furling.  It seems to me that most sails aren't constructed to be reefed using a roller, in fact I think it will damaged them.  I like being heeled over for a bit but the novelty wears off.  The weaterhelm is irritating, the wear on the rigging is greater, and, in my opinion, performace suffers (though I understand others think differently). 

In terms of excitement, people I sail with appear to have much more fun when I send them forward to change a headsail than when the boat's heeled over and they're staring at the water.  After that it's much easier for them to participate in what's going on (e.g. trimming a jib that's not flogging), bring me food, or enjoy the scenery. 

On women and sailing I have this to say: of all the people I've ever taken sailing, more women than men seem to have the natural sailing ability.  I know this is statistically irrelevant...or can anyone corroberate?  I was particularly moved when sailing with a woman a couple of weeks ago.  It was only her second time and she turned to me with emotion stongly showing in her eyes and said "I was born to be a sailor".  After 35 years she figured it out.  I don't know if she'd have been able to feel that emotion so strongly if she'd be scambling to hold on while we heeled way over.

Re: Weather Helm?

I have a roller .I lose ten degrees going to weather reefed.I had my staysail altered to fit the furler as this sail is useful thru a wide wind range,and surprisingly close to the genoa in windard performance.Because it is such a chore to change I decide at anchor what sail to bend on.Reaching and running I fly my single luff spinaker all the time now,much better than the genoa,so there is afairly small range of conditions where I actually lose much performance.A storm jib is next ,as the rolled jib still sucks.

Re: Weather Helm?

I've only owned two CO26's and neither had problems with weather-helm even though they were both different in configuration and sail compliment. Since we're working on a new boat I'd like to hear more about people's experience with weather-helm on their own particular boats.
This has been a subject of posts on several other boards about the 26 as having a big problem and I'd like to get some feedback since I've never experienced this situation first hand with past boats. We're working with UK-Halsey on the sails for the new hulls and several different spar makers and I want to get this right on the first go-around. I'm especially concerned that the original UK Rogers boats seem to have had more problems in this area and the solution was raking the masts but the Taylor boats didn't seem to have the same problems even though the rig was bigger and taller.

Thanks
Gary